Comments on: Hot off the press http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/ Analysis, opinion and ruminations on California education policy Wed, 30 May 2012 07:31:37 +0200 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/comment-page-1/#comment-5751 CarolineSF Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:11:21 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1265#comment-5751 A sentence like this, promoting a snarky, contemptuous headline like this, has destructive power: "The subtitle, “why firing the desk-sleepers, burnouts, hotheads and other failed teachers is all but impossible,” says it all." The headline, and the sentence endorsing it, promote the notion that the teaching profession (the public-school teaching profession, that is) is riddled with impossible-to-fire desk-sleepers, burnouts, hotheads and failures. Which is, needless to say, not true. A sentence like this, promoting a snarky, contemptuous headline like this, has destructive power: “The subtitle, “why firing the desk-sleepers, burnouts, hotheads and other failed teachers is all but impossible,” says it all.” The headline, and the sentence endorsing it, promote the notion that the teaching profession (the public-school teaching profession, that is) is riddled with impossible-to-fire desk-sleepers, burnouts, hotheads and failures. Which is, needless to say, not true.

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]]> By: John Fensterwald http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/comment-page-1/#comment-5730 John Fensterwald Fri, 19 Feb 2010 06:36:30 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1265#comment-5730 I'd say that's wildly exaggerated, defensive reaction to "the media" - whoever they are. It's certainly an unfair characterization of me. I’d say that’s wildly exaggerated, defensive reaction to “the media” – whoever they are. It’s certainly an unfair characterization of me.

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]]> By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/comment-page-1/#comment-5720 CarolineSF Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:43:03 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1265#comment-5720 This is a quote from Sharon Higgins, who runs the Perimeter Primate blog and is a veteran Oakland public school parent and staffer: "The voices aired most often by the media these days are those of the teacher-haters and clueless idealists who believe the fundamental reason for low academic achievement in our cities is because every urban public school teacher is incompetent and lazy. This is the sour attitude behind the dominant education reform movement and it is just plain wrong." This is a quote from Sharon Higgins, who runs the Perimeter Primate blog and is a veteran Oakland public school parent and staffer:
“The voices aired most often by the media these days are those of the teacher-haters and clueless idealists who believe the fundamental reason for low academic achievement in our cities is because every urban public school teacher is incompetent and lazy. This is the sour attitude behind the dominant education reform movement and it is just plain wrong.”

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]]> By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/comment-page-1/#comment-5719 CarolineSF Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:40:56 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1265#comment-5719 I'm in my 25th kid-year as an involved urban public-school parent (which means I have vastly more contact than most of the commentators pronouncing solutions) -- and I'm not blind to the problems. ... But I'm saying that it's applying an impossible standard to expect a school administrator to ensure that a problem teacher never works again, ever, anywhere. It would be like expecting Boeing to ensure that McDonnell Douglas never hired its problem former employees. ... And the beating the concept of teachers' seniority rights is taking in the press and public opinion? (Google Overton Window.) I was present at the union meeting where S.F. Chronicle editorial staffers, some weeping, voted to eliminate their own seniority rights. It's far less simple than you make it out to be. I’m in my 25th kid-year as an involved urban public-school parent (which means I have vastly more contact than most of the commentators pronouncing solutions) — and I’m not blind to the problems. … But I’m saying that it’s applying an impossible standard to expect a school administrator to ensure that a problem teacher never works again, ever, anywhere. It would be like expecting Boeing to ensure that McDonnell Douglas never hired its problem former employees. … And the beating the concept of teachers’ seniority rights is taking in the press and public opinion? (Google Overton Window.) I was present at the union meeting where S.F. Chronicle editorial staffers, some weeping, voted to eliminate their own seniority rights. It’s far less simple than you make it out to be.

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]]> By: John Fensterwald http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/comment-page-1/#comment-5571 John Fensterwald Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:59:56 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1265#comment-5571 Caroline, The issue is not privacy of the teachers; it is a system so dense with due-process rights that the only plausible way to get rid of truly bad teachers -- a small percentage of the total -- is to foist them on to some other principal, usually in a low-performing school desperate to fill a vacancy. You refuse to acknowledge what administrators and superintendents in California acknowledge in every study I have seen. I wonder how safe you'd feel flying if Boeing transferred incompetent mechanics from an assembly line in Seattle to St. Louis. Caroline,
The issue is not privacy of the teachers; it is a system so dense with due-process rights that the only plausible way to get rid of truly bad teachers — a small percentage of the total — is to foist them on to some other principal, usually in a low-performing school desperate to fill a vacancy. You refuse to acknowledge what administrators and superintendents in California acknowledge in every study I have seen.
I wonder how safe you’d feel flying if Boeing transferred incompetent mechanics from an assembly line in Seattle to St. Louis.

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]]> By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/comment-page-1/#comment-5545 CarolineSF Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:39:53 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1265#comment-5545 John, the parent leader I refer to asked me that same question -- are the departed employees still working in the district, or anywhere else? Well, I'm not privy to that information -- even the worst teacher-haters have to acknowledge that teachers' personnel issues deserve a LITTLE privacy, don't they? Or do you really think that every detail should be fully publicly aired, with no privacy or protection whatsoever? Now that'll attract more great people to the teaching profession, won't it? I submit that it's not reasonable to expect the principal to drive the problem teacher out of the profession entirely or call the principal a management failure, which is where you (and the parent leader I mention) are going with this. Does that standard/expectation exist in any other field? One could make the case that it's much more important to keep problem teachers out of the class room than it is to make sure, way, bad newspaper copy editors never work again. But what about, say, people in areas of health (from doctors/nurses/techs to sanitation inspectors)? Or any other number of key personnel anyone could mention -- public safety, people who build cars, whatever? If a competent manager moves a problem employee out, is the manager's job considered incomplete until the world is assured that the employee will never work again? To answer the question directly, I don't know where any of the problem employees who left the school are working. But in my view it's not a reasonable expectation to consider the job undone until the individual's career is destroyed forever. John, the parent leader I refer to asked me that same question — are the departed employees still working in the district, or anywhere else?

Well, I’m not privy to that information — even the worst teacher-haters have to acknowledge that teachers’ personnel issues deserve a LITTLE privacy, don’t they? Or do you really think that every detail should be fully publicly aired, with no privacy or protection whatsoever? Now that’ll attract more great people to the teaching profession, won’t it?

I submit that it’s not reasonable to expect the principal to drive the problem teacher out of the profession entirely or call the principal a management failure, which is where you (and the parent leader I mention) are going with this.

Does that standard/expectation exist in any other field? One could make the case that it’s much more important to keep problem teachers out of the class room than it is to make sure, way, bad newspaper copy editors never work again. But what about, say, people in areas of health (from doctors/nurses/techs to sanitation inspectors)? Or any other number of key personnel anyone could mention — public safety, people who build cars, whatever? If a competent manager moves a problem employee out, is the manager’s job considered incomplete until the world is assured that the employee will never work again?

To answer the question directly, I don’t know where any of the problem employees who left the school are working. But in my view it’s not a reasonable expectation to consider the job undone until the individual’s career is destroyed forever.

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]]> By: John Fensterwald http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/comment-page-1/#comment-5526 John Fensterwald Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:24:57 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1265#comment-5526 Was it so discreet that these teachers are now working in other schools in the district -- another round in the "dance of the lemons"? Was it so discreet that these teachers are now working in other schools in the district — another round in the “dance of the lemons”?

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]]> By: Martha Kanter http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/comment-page-1/#comment-5511 Martha Kanter Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:23:22 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1265#comment-5511 I still have trouble understanding why states don't pay the best teachers, scholars and curriculum developers in the country to create open textbooks and give laptops and/or PDAs to students to access the books 24x7x365... I still have trouble understanding why states don’t pay the best teachers, scholars and curriculum developers in the country to create open textbooks and give laptops and/or PDAs to students to access the books 24×7x365…

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]]> By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/comment-page-1/#comment-5436 CarolineSF Sun, 14 Feb 2010 07:14:27 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1265#comment-5436 True enough, John! One other comment. An influential parent leader in SF whose child is in my daughter's class commented publicly that it's impossible to fire bad teachers. (I'm much more present at the school site than he is.) I pointed out to him privately the problematic teachers who were quietly no longer at our children's school when it opened this fall. The entire situation had escaped it -- he honestly had failed to recognize what had happened. I think there are two reasons for that: It happened quietly and discreetly, as it should -- and also, there's such a drumbeat of teacher-bashing propaganda about how it's impossible to fire deadwood ("why firing the desk-sleepers, burnouts, hotheads and other failed teachers is all but impossible”) that he couldn't see it happening in front of his eyes. True enough, John!

One other comment. An influential parent leader in SF whose child is in my daughter’s class commented publicly that it’s impossible to fire bad teachers. (I’m much more present at the school site than he is.) I pointed out to him privately the problematic teachers who were quietly no longer at our children’s school when it opened this fall. The entire situation had escaped it — he honestly had failed to recognize what had happened. I think there are two reasons for that: It happened quietly and discreetly, as it should — and also, there’s such a drumbeat of teacher-bashing propaganda about how it’s impossible to fire deadwood (”why firing the desk-sleepers, burnouts, hotheads and other failed teachers is all but impossible”) that he couldn’t see it happening in front of his eyes.

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]]> By: John Fensterwald http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/02/12/hot-off-the-press/comment-page-1/#comment-5425 John Fensterwald Sun, 14 Feb 2010 03:59:49 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1265#comment-5425 Caroline: We certainly have found an area of agreement: bad decision-making by management at our previous employer. Caroline: We certainly have found an area of agreement: bad decision-making by management at our previous employer.

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