Comments on: Exploring new pay plans for teachers, principals http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/08/exploring-new-pay-plans-for-teachers-principals/ Analysis, opinion and ruminations on California education policy Wed, 30 May 2012 07:31:37 +0200 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Jennifer http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/08/exploring-new-pay-plans-for-teachers-principals/comment-page-1/#comment-7087 Jennifer Wed, 10 Mar 2010 05:59:37 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1456#comment-7087 Actually, Chris, research is most emphatically not clear on the most significant impact on student achievement. Diane Ravitch takes this notion to task in her recent book. I strongly disagree with the notion that incentivized pay systems will bring better teachers into the profession - and I say this as someone who would make out like a bandit under such a system. Moreover, given the absolute dearth of evidence supporting the idea that the CSTs correlate with mastery of the state standards in all subject areas, I cannot imagine why a school would use these as a major component of such a pay system. Actually, Chris, research is most emphatically not clear on the most significant impact on student achievement. Diane Ravitch takes this notion to task in her recent book.

I strongly disagree with the notion that incentivized pay systems will bring better teachers into the profession – and I say this as someone who would make out like a bandit under such a system. Moreover, given the absolute dearth of evidence supporting the idea that the CSTs correlate with mastery of the state standards in all subject areas, I cannot imagine why a school would use these as a major component of such a pay system.

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]]> By: John Fensterwald http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/08/exploring-new-pay-plans-for-teachers-principals/comment-page-1/#comment-7080 John Fensterwald Wed, 10 Mar 2010 03:22:48 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1456#comment-7080 Point well-taken, RDT. We hope to have another forum on this topic, and will ask teachers to join the panel -- women in particular. Point well-taken, RDT. We hope to have another forum on this topic, and will ask teachers to join the panel — women in particular.

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]]> By: Laura Jameson http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/08/exploring-new-pay-plans-for-teachers-principals/comment-page-1/#comment-7058 Laura Jameson Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:01:21 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1456#comment-7058 High School English teacher - 18 years. *Administrators KNOW which teachers are under performing. The problem is that they get taken to court and lose when they try to terminate a bad teacher. *It's the schools that need the money, not so much the teachers. Stipends never hurt. *I'm on board with hazard pay for people who work in communities with higher crime statistics. High School English teacher – 18 years.
*Administrators KNOW which teachers are under performing. The problem is that they get taken to court and lose when they try to terminate a bad teacher.

*It’s the schools that need the money, not so much the teachers. Stipends never hurt.

*I’m on board with hazard pay for people who work in communities with higher crime statistics.

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]]> By: Chris http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/08/exploring-new-pay-plans-for-teachers-principals/comment-page-1/#comment-7007 Chris Tue, 09 Mar 2010 06:43:41 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1456#comment-7007 Research is pretty clear on this issue that the factor that has the most significant impact on student achievement is effective teachers. As the Head of a charter school, and someone who also teaches middle school math, I can attest to the significant impact that effective teachers have on our students. As a K-8 school, we simply cannot afford to have teachers who do not impact student achievement in any significant way. Our faculty is seriously looking at how we can build in financial incentives that rewards effective teaching and will also clearly identify those teachers who are just not that effective. Student test scores are one measure but it will be one data point among other measurements that we will use to reward those teachers that are high performing. Too many schools are paying salaries to teachers who are not making a significant difference in student achievement. If we can bring in a higher caliber of teacher to our schools, it will be money well spent. Research is pretty clear on this issue that the factor that has the most significant impact on student achievement is effective teachers. As the Head of a charter school, and someone who also teaches middle school math, I can attest to the significant impact that effective teachers have on our students. As a K-8 school, we simply cannot afford to have teachers who do not impact student achievement in any significant way.

Our faculty is seriously looking at how we can build in financial incentives that rewards effective teaching and will also clearly identify those teachers who are just not that effective. Student test scores are one measure but it will be one data point among other measurements that we will use to reward those teachers that are high performing.

Too many schools are paying salaries to teachers who are not making a significant difference in student achievement. If we can bring in a higher caliber of teacher to our schools, it will be money well spent.

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]]> By: Jennifer http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/08/exploring-new-pay-plans-for-teachers-principals/comment-page-1/#comment-6997 Jennifer Tue, 09 Mar 2010 02:49:11 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1456#comment-6997 I agree with RDT and want to add that too many people on this panel haven't taught - and even fewer have taught at high-needs schools. Competition for pay and pay incentives have not been shown to have remarkable positive effects - if anything, the effects are negative (Wall St. bonus season, anyone) - or deter collaboration. Collaboration needs to grow from grade levels to schools to districts, because ultimately we want all schools and teachers to be high-performing. For the record, there is a strong correlation between inexperienced teachers and not very good results - experience does seem to count for something. Like in any job, I think too much experience without enough novelty leads to lowered performance. All in all, I don't want to hear one more word about alternative pay systems until California's teachers know they will be employed next year. Eleven of the fifteen classroom teachers at my site - including four tenured, "permanent" teachers - will receive pink slips tomorrow. All eleven are high-performing teachers who are fully credentialed. Each has won at least one grant or award. We all teach at a high-needs school that is likely to end up short teachers next year because bumped teachers will not accept placements there. The teachers at my school would make out very well in any kind of "alternative compensation" system - if they were employed. These gentlemen could better spend their time on the current funding crisis. I agree with RDT and want to add that too many people on this panel haven’t taught – and even fewer have taught at high-needs schools.

Competition for pay and pay incentives have not been shown to have remarkable positive effects – if anything, the effects are negative (Wall St. bonus season, anyone) – or deter collaboration. Collaboration needs to grow from grade levels to schools to districts, because ultimately we want all schools and teachers to be high-performing.

For the record, there is a strong correlation between inexperienced teachers and not very good results – experience does seem to count for something. Like in any job, I think too much experience without enough novelty leads to lowered performance.

All in all, I don’t want to hear one more word about alternative pay systems until California’s teachers know they will be employed next year. Eleven of the fifteen classroom teachers at my site – including four tenured, “permanent” teachers – will receive pink slips tomorrow. All eleven are high-performing teachers who are fully credentialed. Each has won at least one grant or award. We all teach at a high-needs school that is likely to end up short teachers next year because bumped teachers will not accept placements there. The teachers at my school would make out very well in any kind of “alternative compensation” system – if they were employed.

These gentlemen could better spend their time on the current funding crisis.

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]]> By: Paul Muench http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/08/exploring-new-pay-plans-for-teachers-principals/comment-page-1/#comment-6958 Paul Muench Mon, 08 Mar 2010 16:03:59 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1456#comment-6958 Forget about the immediate technical issues. What parent wants his child taught by a "low-performing" teacher. Sure those teachers exist already, but with a differential pay system based on teacher quality it will be a tough if not impossible political stand for school districts to pretend "low-performing" teachers don't exist. A much better approach politically it to remove teachers who can't teach a year's worth of material in a year. Forget about the immediate technical issues. What parent wants his child taught by a “low-performing” teacher. Sure those teachers exist already, but with a differential pay system based on teacher quality it will be a tough if not impossible political stand for school districts to pretend “low-performing” teachers don’t exist. A much better approach politically it to remove teachers who can’t teach a year’s worth of material in a year.

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]]> By: RDT http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/08/exploring-new-pay-plans-for-teachers-principals/comment-page-1/#comment-6955 RDT Mon, 08 Mar 2010 15:17:49 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1456#comment-6955 I don't say things like this very often, but there's something really grating about an all-male panel discussing teacher pay, given the prevalence of women working in the profession. I don’t say things like this very often, but there’s something really grating about an all-male panel discussing teacher pay, given the prevalence of women working in the profession.

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