Comments on: CSU’s new tack to cut remediation http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/ Analysis, opinion and ruminations on California education policy Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:45:40 +0100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Jeff Rubin http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/comment-page-1/#comment-35891 Jeff Rubin Tue, 13 Dec 2011 01:26:29 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1610#comment-35891 I notice you made seven capitalization errors in the three sentences you wrote. None of the words you capitalized should be capitalized. Words are not capitalized for emphasis, and there's no reason to put college ready in quotation marks. However, college-ready should be hyphenated. Perhaps teachers who don't know these basic writing rules are a reason why so many students are unprepared for college work. I notice you made seven capitalization errors in the three sentences you wrote. None of the words you capitalized should be capitalized. Words are not capitalized for emphasis, and there’s no reason to put college ready in quotation marks. However, college-ready should be hyphenated.
Perhaps teachers who don’t know these basic writing rules are a reason why so many students are unprepared for college work.

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]]> By: M http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/comment-page-1/#comment-8523 M Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:26:06 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1610#comment-8523 As a post-secondary faculty member actively engaged in intersegmental alignment work, I agree with you that aligning curriculum across segments is the most major part of any solution, but don't perceive as strong of a need to revise the state standards. Substantial work has already been done identifying the correlations between the state standards and college/workforce readiness expectations. I appreciate, too, that you recognize (and bring attention to) the CSU's efforts through the EAP to do just that (especially as legislation has authorized the California Community Colleges to utilize the assessment and the other program elements -- ie ERWC and RIAP). The EAP Program has not been in effect for ten years as the article implies, and needs state and public support to take deep root. I must say, too, that I am very surprised that you didn't mention the efforts of the California Partnership for Achieving Student Success (Cal-PASS). Cal-PASS has demonstrable success of increasing college readiness and -- through its discipline Professional Learning Councils throughout the state -- the structure to make more notable impact. Thanks again for your article. As a post-secondary faculty member actively engaged in intersegmental alignment work, I agree with you that aligning curriculum across segments is the most major part of any solution, but don’t perceive as strong of a need to revise the state standards. Substantial work has already been done identifying the correlations between the state standards and college/workforce readiness expectations. I appreciate, too, that you recognize (and bring attention to) the CSU’s efforts through the EAP to do just that (especially as legislation has authorized the California Community Colleges to utilize the assessment and the other program elements — ie ERWC and RIAP). The EAP Program has not been in effect for ten years as the article implies, and needs state and public support to take deep root.

I must say, too, that I am very surprised that you didn’t mention the efforts of the California Partnership for Achieving Student Success (Cal-PASS). Cal-PASS has demonstrable success of increasing college readiness and — through its discipline Professional Learning Councils throughout the state — the structure to make more notable impact. Thanks again for your article.

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]]> By: Maggie http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/comment-page-1/#comment-8444 Maggie Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:57:34 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1610#comment-8444 Wow, $30 million. That's a lot. Except the total CSU budget is nearly $4.5 billion, which means that if your figures are accurate, which they are not, the CSU spends less than 1% of their total budget on remediation. As for "non-credit" courses that "stretch students' time in college," many CSU campuses do give credit for what were formerly called remedial courses. A student who enters the CSU with the highest level of need in both math and English takes at most 12 additional semester units. Since an academic year is 30 semester units, that student will take less than half a year longer to graduate. Yes some--not all--students who enter the CSU requiring remediation will spend a little bit longer, but it is hardly the amount of time people seem to think. So what's the harm in asking remedial students to spend a little extra time getting ready for college? Nothing, if it was their choice and if they didn't have to pay for it. Only 25-50% of the students who voluntarily attend Summer Bridge programs, paid for by the federal government, make any progress on their remediation. When students are forced to attend Early Start, the success rate is likely to be substantially less. But that's not a problem, since they don't have to actually complete the program or prove they have learned anything from it. The Early Start mandate from the Board of Trustees says they will still be admitted as long as they sign up for and pay for the program. The article says Pell Grants will be cover the cost, but that has not been clearly determined. So 100% of the students who place in remediation will pay for something that will benefit very few. As for these students being lazy, lacking parents or teachers who instill in them a proper "work ethic" and "realistic expectations," your zip code has more to do with determining your college readiness than anything else. On average 60-70% of students who enter the CSU from the Oakland Unified School District will place into remediation. Thirty miles away, 20-30% of graduates from the Pleasanton Unified School District will. Is it possible that students in Oakland are just lazier than those in Pleasanton? In fact, in the Oakland school district where more than 35% of the students drop out, a teenager who completes the college prep requirements with a B average should be congratulated, not accused of being lazy or unmotivated. Quite honestly, my own 17-year-old daughter does not have a very admirable work ethic, and I suspect many parents of teenagers would say the same of their children. The fact that my daughter did not place into remediation has little to do with her study habits. People talk about a "seamless" transition to college, about alignment between high school and college curriculum. But high school (or adult school, as one writer suggests) is not college, and every college freshman, whether they are remedial or not, from Oakland or Pleasanton, faces challenges making that transition. Going to college is like traveling to a foreign country. You can sit at home and study French, but when you arrive in France and have to function in that language, you're going to have some trouble. It helps if your parents already speak French, if they are familiar with the culture. Parents who are college graduates themselves know how to prepare their children in ways that have little to do with the kinds of skills people are talking about teaching in Early Start. If Early Start would work, it might be worth doing. But it will have very little impact on the vast majority who will be forced to do it. Five weeks of classes in the summer or sitting in front of a computer pushing buttons will not give students the skills they have not been able to acquire in their entire K-12 education. In fact, the current system of admitting those students and providing them with the support they need works very well, and 85% of students successfully complete their remediation within their first year of college. The Early Start program has been forced upon CSU faculty by the Board of Trustees, and the CSU English Council has strongly opposed it. Those of us who teach these students on a daily basis, who have spent our academic careers understanding the issues of remediation, have soundly rejected Early Start, and it's not because our jobs depend on it. We don't have to teach remedial writers, but we choose to because we have seen benefits of the work we do. Students who place into remediation are far more likely to be low-income, minority students or children of immigrants, who attended urban schools and whose parents have a limited education. If we only wanted to educate white, middle-class children of college graduates, that would be a lot easier. But that is not the population of California, and the economy depends on having college graduates to fill jobs. If businesses cannot find enough employees with the education they need, they will leave the state. And when those former remedial students graduate, they will have better jobs, will pay more in taxes, and will raise children who are better prepared for college than they were. Early Start creates an additional obstacle for students who, through no fault of their own, are least able to pay for it and who will likely not benefit from it. It disproportionately affects low-income, minority students who the CSU claims to value. The CSU cannot increase the graduation rate for this population unless they let them in and support them. This isn't about lazy students getting a break. Equity and access are not idealistic goals. They are absolute necessary for the future of California. Wow, $30 million. That’s a lot. Except the total CSU budget is nearly $4.5 billion, which means that if your figures are accurate, which they are not, the CSU spends less than 1% of their total budget on remediation. As for “non-credit” courses that “stretch students’ time in college,” many CSU campuses do give credit for what were formerly called remedial courses. A student who enters the CSU with the highest level of need in both math and English takes at most 12 additional semester units. Since an academic year is 30 semester units, that student will take less than half a year longer to graduate. Yes some–not all–students who enter the CSU requiring remediation will spend a little bit longer, but it is hardly the amount of time people seem to think.

So what’s the harm in asking remedial students to spend a little extra time getting ready for college? Nothing, if it was their choice and if they didn’t have to pay for it. Only 25-50% of the students who voluntarily attend Summer Bridge programs, paid for by the federal government, make any progress on their remediation. When students are forced to attend Early Start, the success rate is likely to be substantially less. But that’s not a problem, since they don’t have to actually complete the program or prove they have learned anything from it. The Early Start mandate from the Board of Trustees says they will still be admitted as long as they sign up for and pay for the program. The article says Pell Grants will be cover the cost, but that has not been clearly determined. So 100% of the students who place in remediation will pay for something that will benefit very few.

As for these students being lazy, lacking parents or teachers who instill in them a proper “work ethic” and “realistic expectations,” your zip code has more to do with determining your college readiness than anything else. On average 60-70% of students who enter the CSU from the Oakland Unified School District will place into remediation. Thirty miles away, 20-30% of graduates from the Pleasanton Unified School District will. Is it possible that students in Oakland are just lazier than those in Pleasanton? In fact, in the Oakland school district where more than 35% of the students drop out, a teenager who completes the college prep requirements with a B average should be congratulated, not accused of being lazy or unmotivated.

Quite honestly, my own 17-year-old daughter does not have a very admirable work ethic, and I suspect many parents of teenagers would say the same of their children. The fact that my daughter did not place into remediation has little to do with her study habits. People talk about a “seamless” transition to college, about alignment between high school and college curriculum. But high school (or adult school, as one writer suggests) is not college, and every college freshman, whether they are remedial or not, from Oakland or Pleasanton, faces challenges making that transition. Going to college is like traveling to a foreign country. You can sit at home and study French, but when you arrive in France and have to function in that language, you’re going to have some trouble. It helps if your parents already speak French, if they are familiar with the culture. Parents who are college graduates themselves know how to prepare their children in ways that have little to do with the kinds of skills people are talking about teaching in Early Start.

If Early Start would work, it might be worth doing. But it will have very little impact on the vast majority who will be forced to do it. Five weeks of classes in the summer or sitting in front of a computer pushing buttons will not give students the skills they have not been able to acquire in their entire K-12 education. In fact, the current system of admitting those students and providing them with the support they need works very well, and 85% of students successfully complete their remediation within their first year of college. The Early Start program has been forced upon CSU faculty by the Board of Trustees, and the CSU English Council has strongly opposed it. Those of us who teach these students on a daily basis, who have spent our academic careers understanding the issues of remediation, have soundly rejected Early Start, and it’s not because our jobs depend on it. We don’t have to teach remedial writers, but we choose to because we have seen benefits of the work we do.

Students who place into remediation are far more likely to be low-income, minority students or children of immigrants, who attended urban schools and whose parents have a limited education. If we only wanted to educate white, middle-class children of college graduates, that would be a lot easier. But that is not the population of California, and the economy depends on having college graduates to fill jobs. If businesses cannot find enough employees with the education they need, they will leave the state. And when those former remedial students graduate, they will have better jobs, will pay more in taxes, and will raise children who are better prepared for college than they were.

Early Start creates an additional obstacle for students who, through no fault of their own, are least able to pay for it and who will likely not benefit from it. It disproportionately affects low-income, minority students who the CSU claims to value. The CSU cannot increase the graduation rate for this population unless they let them in and support them. This isn’t about lazy students getting a break. Equity and access are not idealistic goals. They are absolute necessary for the future of California.

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]]> By: Camila http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/comment-page-1/#comment-8007 Camila Thu, 25 Mar 2010 19:10:05 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1610#comment-8007 I say stick to your guns, CSU. If students are not proving themselves to be proficient, then by all means either do not admit them or force them to remediate post-high school, but pre-college. To accept unprepared students and then complain about their lack of abilities seems a relatively easy problem to solve. The burden of preparation should be shouldered by those who wish to obtain a higher education, not those who are ready and willing to provide it. The enormous number of students who enter high school,having supposedly learned Algebra 1 in 8th grade or earlier, but who are barely algebraically competent is staggering. And I would imagine that if you asked a middle school teacher about their incoming 6th graders, they would say something similar- it is near impossible to teach Algebra at the college prep level when students have not yet even mastered their mulitplication tables and have little number sense. And if you asked a kindergarten teacher I know you will again hear something along those same lines. When parents of struggling students put their time and energy into their children's education by reinforcing learning at home, by promoting a strong work ethic, and by adopting realistic expectations, we will see a more legitimate "college prep" high schooler. I say stick to your guns, CSU. If students are not proving themselves to be proficient, then by all means either do not admit them or force them to remediate post-high school, but pre-college. To accept unprepared students and then complain about their lack of abilities seems a relatively easy problem to solve. The burden of preparation should be shouldered by those who wish to obtain a higher education, not those who are ready and willing to provide it.

The enormous number of students who enter high school,having supposedly learned Algebra 1 in 8th grade or earlier, but who are barely algebraically competent is staggering. And I would imagine that if you asked a middle school teacher about their incoming 6th graders, they would say something similar- it is near impossible to teach Algebra at the college prep level when students have not yet even mastered their mulitplication tables and have little number sense. And if you asked a kindergarten teacher I know you will again hear something along those same lines. When parents of struggling students put their time and energy into their children’s education by reinforcing learning at home, by promoting a strong work ethic, and by adopting realistic expectations, we will see a more legitimate “college prep” high schooler.

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]]> By: Rachel http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/comment-page-1/#comment-8004 Rachel Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:53:54 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1610#comment-8004 I feel a great sense of empathy for the college professors who are encountering college freshmen who are bellow where they are supposed to be, as a high school teacher of English I see the same thing in my high school freshmen every year. However I don't think the blame game, and pointing of fingers that has been going on for decades is doing students at either end of the spectrum any good, nor is it professional. I'd like to see Colleges and the State of California decide on a set of standards that matches. In a world of high stakes testing, K-12 schools are hard pressed to get through the standards set up by the state every year, much less add on the additional things being asked of by the university system. But really I don't see us making any sort of real change until we can manage to change the way students approach higher education. Most, though not all, of today's students are apathetic and lazy. They do the bare minimum and have pushy parents as advocates to make up the difference. Maybe the financial burden of extra college units will be enough to motivate our high school seniors to take their classess seriously. I feel a great sense of empathy for the college professors who are encountering college freshmen who are bellow where they are supposed to be, as a high school teacher of English I see the same thing in my high school freshmen every year. However I don’t think the blame game, and pointing of fingers that has been going on for decades is doing students at either end of the spectrum any good, nor is it professional. I’d like to see Colleges and the State of California decide on a set of standards that matches. In a world of high stakes testing, K-12 schools are hard pressed to get through the standards set up by the state every year, much less add on the additional things being asked of by the university system. But really I don’t see us making any sort of real change until we can manage to change the way students approach higher education. Most, though not all, of today’s students are apathetic and lazy. They do the bare minimum and have pushy parents as advocates to make up the difference. Maybe the financial burden of extra college units will be enough to motivate our high school seniors to take their classess seriously.

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]]> By: Rudy http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/comment-page-1/#comment-7929 Rudy Wed, 24 Mar 2010 14:35:09 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1610#comment-7929 @727887rei The CSU is not 100% funded by the state, as being a public university would suppose. Probably around 60 to 70% comes from the state - yes, still a huge amount, but the school's have to raise their own funds to meet needs. Unfortunately, the CSUs don't have close to the funding the UCs receive from neither the state or private investors. Which is why I strongly believe that remedial work should be covered at community college or high schools. That fact that these kids are graduating high schools with the right GPAs, but terrible writing skills speaks lowly of our k-12 system in California. @727887rei

The CSU is not 100% funded by the state, as being a public university would suppose. Probably around 60 to 70% comes from the state – yes, still a huge amount, but the school’s have to raise their own funds to meet needs. Unfortunately, the CSUs don’t have close to the funding the UCs receive from neither the state or private investors. Which is why I strongly believe that remedial work should be covered at community college or high schools. That fact that these kids are graduating high schools with the right GPAs, but terrible writing skills speaks lowly of our k-12 system in California.

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]]> By: John Fensterwald http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/comment-page-1/#comment-7881 John Fensterwald Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:22:49 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1610#comment-7881 I know no more than the Los Angeles Times story that you saw -- http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-greendot23-2010mar23,0,1323354.story -- which said that one of Green Dot's 19 schools plans to close. It is one of five small schools that Green Dot established around crowded Jefferson High. The five, said the story, have performed better than Jefferson, which itself has improved -- from the pressure of competition or the relief of having fewer students? The school that is to close has been underenrolled and subsidized by philanthropic dollars while it was built out to scale. It didn't do as well as the others. Failed charter school that should close or the natural shakeup from many schools offering alternatives to a neighborhood that had no choices, other than a failed comprehensive high school, before? There wasn't info to decide. I know no more than the Los Angeles Times story that you saw — http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-greendot23-2010mar23,0,1323354.story — which said that one of Green Dot’s 19 schools plans to close. It is one of five small schools that Green Dot established around crowded Jefferson High. The five, said the story, have performed better than Jefferson, which itself has improved — from the pressure of competition or the relief of having fewer students? The school that is to close has been underenrolled and subsidized by philanthropic dollars while it was built out to scale. It didn’t do as well as the others.
Failed charter school that should close or the natural shakeup from many schools offering alternatives to a neighborhood that had no choices, other than a failed comprehensive high school, before? There wasn’t info to decide.

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]]> By: Steve http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/comment-page-1/#comment-7869 Steve Tue, 23 Mar 2010 18:46:12 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1610#comment-7869 The education system is failing. Students are not ready for college and everyone plays the blame game. Maybe we need higher expectations for our students. I agree with Lea Ann, the students I see at my college are not ready. It is time to raise the bar on who gets to go to college. Those without the basic skills need to go back to Adult School and gain the needed skills before they enter college. The education system is failing. Students are not ready for college and everyone plays the blame game. Maybe we need higher expectations for our students.
I agree with Lea Ann, the students I see at my college are not ready. It is time to raise the bar on who gets to go to college. Those without the basic skills need to go back to Adult School and gain the needed skills before they enter college.

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]]> By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/comment-page-1/#comment-7862 CarolineSF Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:28:25 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1610#comment-7862 No posts on Green Dot's announcement that it's closing one of its schools and possibly a second -- which is really pretty earthshaking in the "ed reform" world? No posts on Green Dot’s announcement that it’s closing one of its schools and possibly a second — which is really pretty earthshaking in the “ed reform” world?

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]]> By: 727887rei http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/03/23/csus-new-tack-to-cut-remediation/comment-page-1/#comment-7859 727887rei Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:21:20 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1610#comment-7859 This is the same CSU that claims it doesn't have enough seats to accommodate students due to lack of state funding. How about rejecting students who graduate in the top 1/3 of HSs but are unprepared for college-level work. Seems to me there'd be plenty of vacant seats then. Also, what does it mean to say that "CSU grades the exams at ITS OWN expense"? It seems to me that all state-funded activities are at taxpayer expense. Also, the last time I checked, CSU's General Fund support was earmarked for specific purposes; student fee revenues offset state support for instruction. Unless CSU has a secret source of income, the statement can only mean that it redirected funding that had been provided for other purposes. This is the same CSU that claims it doesn’t have enough seats to accommodate students due to lack of state funding. How about rejecting students who graduate in the top 1/3 of HSs but are unprepared for college-level work. Seems to me there’d be plenty of vacant seats then. Also, what does it mean to say that “CSU grades the exams at ITS OWN expense”? It seems to me that all state-funded activities are at taxpayer expense. Also, the last time I checked, CSU’s General Fund support was earmarked for specific purposes; student fee revenues offset state support for instruction. Unless CSU has a secret source of income, the statement can only mean that it redirected funding that had been provided for other purposes.

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