Comments on: Math training’s low numbers http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/ Analysis, opinion and ruminations on California education policy Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:45:40 +0100 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: John Fensterwald http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-11714 John Fensterwald Tue, 04 May 2010 08:35:18 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1960#comment-11714 Valid point of view. Let's see what others thing. Ze'ev? Valid point of view. Let’s see what others thing. Ze’ev?

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]]> By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-11591 CarolineSF Sun, 02 May 2010 21:07:12 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1960#comment-11591 Sooner or later, a reporter-turned-teacher was destined to respond to the unfortunate teacher-bashing that has been popular with the mainstream press -- and Beatrice Motamedi did it gently and gracefully, too. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/05/01/IN9K1D6AQE.DTL Sooner or later, a reporter-turned-teacher was destined to respond to the unfortunate teacher-bashing that has been popular with the mainstream press — and Beatrice Motamedi did it gently and gracefully, too.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/05/01/IN9K1D6AQE.DTL

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]]> By: Gary Ravani http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-11587 Gary Ravani Sun, 02 May 2010 19:40:18 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1960#comment-11587 Torture..the metaphor? Were you talking to me John? I haven't posted on this yet, but here goes. We are all aware of the math wars/reading wars. Is it possible that the wrong side won out in both of those latest skirmishes? We know, in CA anyway, how a former Sonoma County Supervisor (Janice/Janet something or other) appointed to the SBE hijacked the math standards and handed them over for unilateral revision by a UC prof of very conservative persuasion. To the extent this happened most places (and it appears it did) it could well explain how teachers were given professional development using poor pedagogy and then transferred that to poor pedagogy used for students. US kids have always been pretty good at basic computation and since "standards and accountability/if-it-moves assess-it" have claimed the day things have not improved for whatever it is the tests are telling us. It appears "drill-baby-drill" is a concept leading to poor outcomes in a variety of arenas including math, reading, and the environment. Torturous enough? Torture..the metaphor? Were you talking to me John? I haven’t posted on this yet, but here goes. We are all aware of the math wars/reading wars. Is it possible that the wrong side won out in both of those latest skirmishes? We know, in CA anyway, how a former Sonoma County Supervisor (Janice/Janet something or other) appointed to the SBE hijacked the math standards and handed them over for unilateral revision by a UC prof of very conservative persuasion. To the extent this happened most places (and it appears it did) it could well explain how teachers were given professional development using poor pedagogy and then transferred that to poor pedagogy used for students. US kids have always been pretty good at basic computation and since “standards and accountability/if-it-moves assess-it” have claimed the day things have not improved for whatever it is the tests are telling us. It appears “drill-baby-drill” is a concept leading to poor outcomes in a variety of arenas including math, reading, and the environment. Torturous enough?

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]]> By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-11471 CarolineSF Sat, 01 May 2010 16:26:24 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1960#comment-11471 (I didn't mean that Jacobs' blog itself is an anti-teacher hatefest; that referred to some of the comment threads.) (I didn’t mean that Jacobs’ blog itself is an anti-teacher hatefest; that referred to some of the comment threads.)

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]]> By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-11468 CarolineSF Sat, 01 May 2010 16:12:46 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1960#comment-11468 Just to be clear, I'll restate. I'm in my 24th kid-year as an involved urban public school parent and volunteer. During that time, I've found that the teachers most likely to be viewed as problematic -- at least by parents -- have been middle-school and high-school math teachers. However, with every one of those teachers in my experience, the issue was not lack of math skill but other difficulties imparting the material to students. My own kids actually DO naturally take to math (which is unusual as they're the offspring of two newspaper journalists, not a subgroup known for its math aptitude). So my observation based on their own problems with these teachers. I fliply commented that "math nerds tend to lack patience with students who don't naturally take to math." I'm sorry if I offended any mathematicians. I'll restate just to note that in my personal experience with several teachers, the issue is lack of teaching facility, not lack of math skills. Teacher-bashers like to hammer on the notion that teachers are poorly educated and low-achieving (read some of the comment threads on Joanne Jacobs' blog, an anti-teacher hatefest). The claim that math teachers lack math skills is part of the teacher-bashing script. I'm challenging it based on my own kids' experience. Just to be clear, I’ll restate. I’m in my 24th kid-year as an involved urban public school parent and volunteer. During that time, I’ve found that the teachers most likely to be viewed as problematic — at least by parents — have been middle-school and high-school math teachers. However, with every one of those teachers in my experience, the issue was not lack of math skill but other difficulties imparting the material to students. My own kids actually DO naturally take to math (which is unusual as they’re the offspring of two newspaper journalists, not a subgroup known for its math aptitude). So my observation based on their own problems with these teachers. I fliply commented that “math nerds tend to lack patience with students who don’t naturally take to math.” I’m sorry if I offended any mathematicians. I’ll restate just to note that in my personal experience with several teachers, the issue is lack of teaching facility, not lack of math skills. Teacher-bashers like to hammer on the notion that teachers are poorly educated and low-achieving (read some of the comment threads on Joanne Jacobs’ blog, an anti-teacher hatefest). The claim that math teachers lack math skills is part of the teacher-bashing script. I’m challenging it based on my own kids’ experience.

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]]> By: John Fensterwald http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-11429 John Fensterwald Sat, 01 May 2010 06:27:05 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1960#comment-11429 I didn't think I was overstating your criticism of math teachers, but point taken. As you know, there's no rent on this blog. It's all free. I didn’t think I was overstating your criticism of math teachers, but point taken.
As you know, there’s no rent on this blog. It’s all free.

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]]> By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-11426 CarolineSF Sat, 01 May 2010 06:11:52 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1960#comment-11426 Obviously I'm not talking about all math teachers, John. And pretending to take offense is a rather low-rent and and ineffective way to refute my point. Do you have solid reason -- data or personal experience -- to disagree? Obviously I’m not talking about all math teachers, John. And pretending to take offense is a rather low-rent and and ineffective way to refute my point. Do you have solid reason — data or personal experience — to disagree?

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]]> By: John Fensterwald http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-11405 John Fensterwald Sat, 01 May 2010 00:05:04 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1960#comment-11405 Torture that metaphor, Gary. Torture that metaphor, Gary.

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]]> By: John Fensterwald http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-11402 John Fensterwald Fri, 30 Apr 2010 23:48:18 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1960#comment-11402 I know math teachers who would take offense, justifiably, at your broad-brush characterization of their lack of interpersonal skills. Perhaps you are guilty of generalizing from your personal experience. I know math teachers who would take offense, justifiably, at your broad-brush characterization of their lack of interpersonal skills. Perhaps you are guilty of generalizing from your personal experience.

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]]> By: CarolineSF http://toped.svefoundation.org/2010/04/30/math-trainings-low-numbers/comment-page-1/#comment-11379 CarolineSF Fri, 30 Apr 2010 17:28:56 +0000 http://educatedguess.org/blog/?p=1960#comment-11379 A friend who teaches in a disadvantaged Bay Area middle school found the Noyce program extremely valuable, just to add some praise. ... But here's a reality check -- my observation as an involved urban public high school parent and volunteer. The problematic teachers about whom parents and students complain most in middle and high school have tended, disproportionately, to be math teachers. BUT the problem is NOT the lack of math skills! Those teachers appear to be highly skilled in math. The problem is that they have tended to lack interpersonal skills and thus teaching ability, especially with students who aren't naturally sponges absorbing the math theory. To put it bluntly, math nerds tend to lack patience with students who don't naturally take to math. People who have no contact with classrooms seem to think the problem is the teachers' lack of math skills, but that's not the real-life experience in schools. And that changes the whole nature of the complaint -- as reality will do. A friend who teaches in a disadvantaged Bay Area middle school found the Noyce program extremely valuable, just to add some praise. … But here’s a reality check — my observation as an involved urban public high school parent and volunteer. The problematic teachers about whom parents and students complain most in middle and high school have tended, disproportionately, to be math teachers. BUT the problem is NOT the lack of math skills! Those teachers appear to be highly skilled in math. The problem is that they have tended to lack interpersonal skills and thus teaching ability, especially with students who aren’t naturally sponges absorbing the math theory. To put it bluntly, math nerds tend to lack patience with students who don’t naturally take to math. People who have no contact with classrooms seem to think the problem is the teachers’ lack of math skills, but that’s not the real-life experience in schools. And that changes the whole nature of the complaint — as reality will do.

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