Support for teachers over unions
Poll: Most voters would pay higher taxes
For all the talk of teacher bashing, a big majority of Californians think highly of public school teachers; most believe they’re underpaid. But they also have issues with their union, a new poll has found.
According to a survey of 1,500 Californians by the USC Dornsife/Los Angeles Times Poll, 52 percent said that teachers unions are too powerful, while 36 percent disagreed; 45 percent said unions are resistant to reforms that would improve schools, while 37 percent disagreed. Parents in the survey were the most critical of the unions. (For the full results, go here. )
But at the same time, by a 45-40 split, respondents agreed with the statement “Unions help teachers succeed in a very tough profession,” and in this case, parents, with first-hand knowledge, agreed even more: 49 percent to 37 percent.
Sixty-two percent agreed with the statements that teachers unions had too much influence over policy, compared with 54 percent who said that for-profit organizations cared more about making money than improving education, including those that operate charter schools.
Student test scores for evaluations
U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan generally will be pleased and the California Teachers Association disconcerted with the poll results. Nearly seven in 10 (69 percent) of those surveyed say that teachers’ evaluations should be made public; those surveyed say that students’ progress and performance on standardized tests scores should count, on average, for almost half of teachers’ evaluations, with classroom observations and parent feedback included as well.
Giving test scores that much weight puts Californians in fundamental agreement with the Obama administration, which has made using test scores as a significant factor a condition in the Race to the Top competition and the latest waiver for the No Child Left Behind law. The California Teachers Assn. doesn’t want scores used at all, arguing that the tests weren’t designed for evaluating teachers and are fraught with errors. What respondents overwhelmingly don’t like is the status quo of basing pay on seniority (10 percent agreed with that) or advanced degrees and training (only 13 percent agreed).
Other finds in the poll:
- Years of budget cuts for schools have gotten to the point where a solid majority of Californians would be willing to pay more school taxes, even if that meant an increase in their own taxes: 64 percent were strongly or somewhat in favor; the percentage didn’t change significantly for those who were told that California ranks 42nd in the nation in per student funding;
- As for factors that would improve the quality of public schools, the poll found greatest support for reducing class size and increasing parental involvement; two-thirds would support putting more money into economically and socially disadvantaged schools, a percentage that drops to 57 percent when told that doing so would involve taking money from wealthier schools. (Update: Respondents also give high marks to providing aspiring teachers with a one-year apprenticeship under a high-performing teacher.)
- 52 percent of the 308 parents in the survey said they’d consider enrolling their children in a charter school, compared with 38 percent who said they wouldn’t.
Teachers’ unions get constant media bashing, so it’s not surprising that that would result in some drop in support among those who follow mainstream news. And teachers’ unions have made little effort to devote resources to any campaign to counter the bashing. Should they? Discuss among yourselves.
One point that strikes me about the image of teachers: A great many people, as parents or in their days as a student, have had an unpleasant experience with a teacher who was doing his/her job well. Some parents might be grateful and understanding about being alerted about missing homework or behavior problems or indications of a learning disability, but — well, many aren’t. Some understand and appreciate that that D or U was deserved and indicates that their child is being held to a certain standard — and many don’t. I realize that these poll results show approval of teachers as individuals, but the situation is still something to ponder.
Of course, this “d’oh!” moment shows how much stock we should really put in poll responses to begin with:
As for factors that would improve the quality of public schools, the poll found greatest support for reducing class size and increasing parental involvement; two-thirds would support putting more money into economically and socially disadvantaged schools, a percentage that drops to 57 percent when told that doing involved taking money from wealthier schools.
It’s like the old “don’t make the taxpayers pay for it — make the government pay for it!” viewpoint, or on the intellectual level of “don’t let the government get its hands on my Medicare!”
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Yes! the teacher’s union has become a mega mouth–not for the betterment of the kids, but for the intrenchment of the members–and a thirsty desire for more–it would be better if we were able to rid ourselves of such leeches
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Given testing/accountability is here to stay, I wish the powerful interest groups would embrace a campaign to question WHAT shall be tested. Policymakers must get “into the weeds” when developing high stakes tests, since WHAT is tested is WHAT is taught.
Instead, many in the education establishment are fighting over whether there should be high-stakes tests at all … that hill has already been lost to strong voter sentiment about accountability, and the politicians are keenly aware of this political landscape.
It’s time to have a mature discussion about WHAT we are holding schools (administrators, teachers, etc.) accountable to, so that we can focus policy deliberations (and our elected representatives) on WHAT is being offered and taught to students.
Policymakers should be asking questions like: What outcomes do we expect from K-12 education? How broad should K-12 curriculum be for every student (including at-risk)? Should every high school graduate be prepared for a 4-year college? Should all middle/high school students be given adequate career exposure and preparation? How can schools provide students a firm understanding of their civic responsibilities in this fragile republic (and the intellectual tools to be able to responsibly exercise their civic rights)? How can regulators hold schools accountable for these outcomes, and are standardized, fill-in-the-bubble tests a sufficient means?
In short, all of us need to be questioning the fundamental purposes of taxpayer-funded, public education, and compelling our electeds to do so, as well. If we expect all students coming out of the K-12 system to be self-reliant, responsible citizens of their communities, state, nation and world, policymakers must create accountability “drivers” aimed at those ultimate outcomes. Instead, entrenched interest groups seem to be fighting on battelfields that no longer have any real-world signficance to our global challenges; and far too many students are collateral casualties to this seemingly endless quagmire.
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CTA internal polls have shown for years that voters like teachers but not the union. Its quite the same as hating Congress but loving your congressman.
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Fred Jones’ comments articulate the frustrations of many parents and some teachers. The union entrenchment serves nobody, and CTA’s AB114 was particularly damaging both in practice in terms of fiscal mismanagement, and nailing the final nail in the coffin for children’s education as the heart of K-12 education. Not helping anybody is the narrowness of the SPSA process that cuts out the rich areas of children’s learning such that they disappear from the purview of what limited parental and community oversight there is. So … how do those of who are unhappy move beyond blogging, beyond serving endlessly on school committees, and start making an impact on the legislators? I am not knocking those actions – I do them everyday! – but unless there is concerted action across CA, it will be another year of fighting about whether or not school boards can hire an attorney using public funds during contract negotiations, or whether NCLB is in or out. I’m experienced in strategies at the City Council level in San Diego, but how do groups get together, find common ground, and make themselves heard in Sacramento? In all honesty, Johnny still can’t read, and technology and phones in every classroom haven’t raised math and physics scores … except for the groups that were already successful!
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John,
Thanks for another well written piece on the complex equation of teachers/unions/parents/taxpayers. In the end, the kids will benefit from a focus on their welfare vs. that of the other competing “interests”. Hope the future gravitates that way.
Craig
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Fred, you’ve hit the nail on the head. Your points are very well thought out and I applaud your common sense thinking on this. This is the CORE of what we should be striving for.
“Policymakers should be asking questions like: What outcomes do we expect from K-12 education? How broad should K-12 curriculum be for every student (including at-risk)? Should every high school graduate be prepared for a 4-year college? Should all middle/high school students be given adequate career exposure and preparation? How can schools provide students a firm understanding of their civic responsibilities in this fragile republic (and the intellectual tools to be able to responsibly exercise their civic rights)? How can regulators hold schools accountable for these outcomes, and are standardized, fill-in-the-bubble tests a sufficient means?
In short, all of us need to be questioning the fundamental purposes of taxpayer-funded, public education, and compelling our electeds to do so, as well. If we expect all students coming out of the K-12 system to be self-reliant, responsible citizens of their communities, state, nation and world, policymakers must create accountability “drivers” aimed at those ultimate outcomes.”
I’ll add this as well. The textbooks suck! I believe that textbooks are a big business. They’re rewritten every year and for what? Has the principles of math changed all that much over the centuries? A prime example of this is the time I picked up a 1950’s math book from a thrift shop, just because of the ink illustrations. Reading it at home, I was struck at how direct it was. Using real world langauge and scenarios to teach what numbers really are about. This small book showed you how to calculate the size of a floor for square footage. Showed you how to calculate gas mileage and what it cost you at the pump. It showed you how to balance a checkbook and all of this and much more in 100 pages or so.
This math book had no arcane or indirect references using obtuse language. It was beautifully laid out and illustrated. I remember looking at my then roommates junior high school mathbook and it was filled with ‘goobledygook’ words and confusing principles that would dull your mind in a heartbeat. I was repelled by it and I can see why the kids have no interest in learning. Surely we’ve lost our way. It doesn’t have to be that complicated.
I looked at the Prentice Hall middle school math book and while they did really try to incorporate real world examples, a lot of it was useless! An example is the ratios lesson that used the planets and had the students calculate the differing ratios of the planets to the sun. And while many teachers might applaud that (Astronomy and Math at the same time!) how about directing their attention the real world that they experience every day? How about showing them gear ratios and how they multiply torque? You could have a physical model there. A bicycle is a perfect example of that! Why is the the largest gear on the rear cogset (or cassette as it’s known) is so big? Why is the smallest chainring on the front crankset so small? Why and what effects does it have?
Fred is right about the college as well. It’s not for every one. There is a real shortage of manual skills in this country. The major aerospace company I work for is having a tough time finding ‘Structural Mechanics’ who can drill a hole accurately, read blueprints and do calculations. Go see what a top CNC mill operator makes. A good auto technician is worth every penny of the $50K plus a year. Good luck finding someone who does competent tile work (my best friend makes a very good living at this) and I worked with him twenty years ago doing custom tile work in West Los Angeles and Beverly Hills. And to this day, I can still spot expert and well-done tile work.
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The most distressing to me is the end of this article, “What respondents overwhelmingly don’t like is the status quo of basing pay on seniority (10 percent agreed with that) or advanced degrees and training (only 13 percent agreed).”
Reformers like Rhee have apparently been most successful in convincing the public that teachers are “born, not made” so experience and training are not worth anything to them. We wouldn’t want a doctor to operate on our parents without BOTH experience and training! It’s disturbing that respondents don’t think of teaching as a science, and teaching children as a sophisticated skill set. Education isn’t over in 5 hrs like a surgery, but it’s quality has serious ramifications for a student for the rest of their life.
It’s also frustrating that what is on the CST is so secret that parents and the public at large really don’t understand how poorly written the test can be, how much bias it shows, how many mistakes there really are, and why it’s unfair to judge student achievement soley on such a test, and how equally grievous it is to do the same to teachers. There’d be no need to teach students “testing strategies” which both parents and teachers find objectionable if test questions for elementary students were straight instead of “trick questions.” But the public also doesn’t understand the difference between conversational and academic language acquisition and how much longer academic language needed to read textbooks and pass tests takes. Neither, it seems, does Congress, which is why everyone is judging students who have been learning English for about 2 years so harshly since before NCLB.
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Here is the point! Just take one day of these tests to understand the sacrifice our children are making by weeks of test practice and taking.
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@Pamzella, what John did not do in this story was explain how that question was phrased. Pollsters asked what is the ONE thing that should be the single biggest factor in determining teacher pay. The first choice they heard was this: “Their students’ achievement and progress on a range of measures including standardized tests, classroom observation, and parent feedback. ” That was followed by “The education or advanced training they have received” then “Number of years of classroom teaching experience” and last “Their students’ achievement and progress on standardized tests “.
California voters are far more nuanced in their understanding of the issues that journalists make them out to be. Based on John’s analysis of the poll as written above, you might conclude that the reformers’ campaign has swayed public opinion. However a close read of the poll responses tells a different story. It’s fascinating to have read the poll, then to read each media outlet’s take on the results.
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Bea: I applaud you for reading the survey itself; I disagree with your statement that I mischaracterized the findings. You accurately stated the question but you failed to give the results.
I would agree that the results show the public has a nuanced appreciation of the basis on which teachers should be compensated. Except for a few bold pioneering districts, that’s not the approach that CTA takes or encourages.
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The way the first choice is worded, and its place on the list, guarantees those results. It’s the only option that includes multiple factors and multiple sources. Even a respondent who values training, degrees or years on the job would be hard-pressed to not choose the first option as the one thing (because it’s not one thing) that should be the biggest factor in determining teacher pay.
BTW, since when is “parent feedback” on the table for teacher pay?
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There is more than a little “sinning by omission” going on here. What hasn’t been mentioned is that there were three, not two, agents involved in this “polling” process. It was the LA Times (well known for their lack of objectivity when it comes to teachers and unions), the UCS Dornsife College, AND the co-directors of the polling project: “American Viewpoint, a Republican firm…” (LA Times). So consider the source(s).
Phi Delta Kappan did a recent poll with Gallup (not, by the way, a Republican firm) that found a slight majority of Americans favored teachers’ unions and only a few considered them a significant problem in education.
A Republican firm? What happened here? Wasn’t Fox news available to give a “fair and balanced” view of teachers’ unions?
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Someone who believes that classroom observation is the most important factor also can only choose the first option.
A better question (if you meant to understand what factors respondents found important) would be to list several and allow responders to choose as many as they want. Note how few chose test scores alone.
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Fred’s statements were excellent. I might add that the education policies that impact our children begin at the local level. Where I live, important school board policies have not been reviewed or updated for 17 years! There are no policies for ethical conduct by board members, no policies on protocol for public censure, and recent (January 2011) updates to the Brown Act have not been implemented at the board level.
As educators and citizens, we need to begin by clearly identifying and articulating policy structures under which our schools function if we are to meet the challenges of providing an education for ALL children with taxpayer money. Accountability and student learning outcomes need to be built into our local systems.
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i disagree that accountability is here to stay.
california’s accountability system is a joke, and the more we focus on those metrics, the more that will become clear to everyone. we are now at a point where accountability is beginning to hurt more than it helps, and people are starting to notice that. that brings with it the potential for an anti-accountability backlash. i lament that, not because i think accountability is bad, but because we tend to over-do our reactionary responses.
I also think its a mistake to be having the discussion about the whole point of schooling after we’ve already implemented most of the accountability.
the first thing we need to do is stop pushing harder on the square peg to get it to go into the round hole, and look around to see whether there might be a square hole somewhere..
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Wow. Are you serious?
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